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  #21  
Old 16-09-2007, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_I_R_E_E_K
and why is nomercy so mean.....
I would resent that if it weren't true.
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  #22  
Old 16-09-2007, 11:40 PM
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Oh hush. You're a big softie and everybody should know that.
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If I don't know what lies beyond
Desire is now the one in control
Am I strong enough to not ever know just what I'd find?
Should I press on?
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  #23  
Old 24-11-2007, 03:06 PM
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I believe in God and I have good reason to

1. if there was no God there is no point of ever being alive because there is no meaning for life
2. if there was no God there would be no heaven and no hell therefore there is no place where good people get rewarded and bad people get punished.
3. if you think that you're reasons are good then you don't know anything. do you see the pointlessness of wanting to be equal to the creator of the universe? also when the devil started commiting evil deeds he didn't stop and evil isn't allowed in heaven that is why he sent him and his followers to hell.
4. he sends bad people to hell because of what they did on earth. if somebody killed a child then wouldn't you want them to be punished in some way? also he sends them to hell because he gave them free will and they used the free will to do what they wanted isntead of what they were created to do. if you repent or are good then you go to heaven.
5. if you need proof as to why a creator exists read "a case for a creator"
6. I don't b elieve what people tell me blindly.
7. I will renounce my faith if you can disprove everything in a case for a creator
8. I can almost guarentee you that if you read a case for a creator then there is not much chance of you denying God exists.
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  #24  
Old 24-11-2007, 04:49 PM
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1) If you live your life for a false deity, of whom there is no proof of it existing, then sure, there's no point in you being alive. We are human, and we have conciousness, which means we are able to make decisions based on our own judgement, and are able to learn and grow.

2) Prove to me heaven or hell exists. Only way is for you to kill yourself, then await your "god", in all of its "infinite wisdom" to send you back to life to prove it.

3) We don't want to be equal; we are more powerful. We can move mountains, part seas, we have the ability to snuff out life in a HEARTBEAT.

4) It's called prison, genius. Bad people (and sometimes good people too >_> ) get sent to prison.

5) Speculation from a religious sector; one-sided, baseless foolishness.

6) You believe in god and the bible, ergo you do.

7) -points up-

8) Uh-huh. http://www.brad-johnson.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=179 Take a look here, it's a debate forum I use. There are vey few people who believe in this religion there, and those that do are fanatics, much like you seem to be. Fanaticism breeds contempt and anger among the foolish masses. Also, if you feel any problems whatsoever against other religions, races, creeds, or those of a different sexual disposition than is considered normal in the bible, I will hurt someone you love.

Now, my reasons for not believing are as such. The bible, as we all know, is a very old book. Many of the things that go on inside its pages (stoning of Jews, homosexuals, slavery, the murder of helpless children, etc) is frowned upon in today's society. As a few people on this forum know, I have a certain distaste for that sort of thing, as do they. According to the bible, god created the world, and put Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. There are quite a few flaws in this. Flaw number one, is that this so-called garden would have been discovered by now by architects and their ilk. Flaw two is that according to the bible god placed animals there. Now I don't know about you, but I believe in Darwin's theory of Evolution, which disproves this section of the bible entirely. First came plants, then insects, etc etc. eventually dinosaurs came, and this was millions upon millions of years ago.

Noah's Ark. No shipwright of today would be able to build a ship able to hold the two of every species of creature Noah was supposed to take with him, and there would be absolutely no way that he could build it out of wood. Plus the animals and creatures, he would also need to carry food for them, and keep this in mind; some would be carnivores who fed on other animals he carried. Ergo that part is disproved.

As my dear sister already stated earlier in this thread, I believe, a few sections from the bible which show its distaste of homosexuals. I'll go into greater detail on this, as well as provide a link I found absolutely hilarious.

Link: http://exodus.to/component/option,co...page/Itemid,1/

Now this is just taking the mickey. AFFECTED BY HOMOSEXUALITY. HEAL HOMOSEXUALS. This crap is easily on the same level as racism, but because it comes from a religious bias, of which many countries are a party of, nothing can be done lawfully against those who decide to write this complete and utter BULL****. Homosexuality is not a disease, nor an affliction, ergo it cannot be healed, nor can the 'affected' persons in question be 'cleansed' by the light of 'god'.

As a counterpoint, and to end this sector of the argument, I pose a question. Which religion is the true religion? When you answer this, please PROVE IT without resorting to quoting the bible, or giving me exerpts from christian-based websites/books, as doing so would prove you to be a moron with a one-track mind, and also as a brainless sheep who follows what he is spoon-fed blindly, as you so fervently decline.

Sikhism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Wiccan/Paganism, and my personal favourite Atheism. Which is true?

I await your response.
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  #25  
Old 24-11-2007, 10:36 PM
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Ahhh, Nomercy is quite correct. However, for my own amusment I will add:

1.) You create your own reason to exist. To rely on others to give you meaning is weakness.

Also the point to life is that it can and will happen anywhere it is possible to sustain such a chemical reaction. Life is just an overly complex chemical reaction which spawns intricate neural pathways tricking those who are sentient into believing they are more than they truly are.

The reason you exist is that life and reproduction makes collective matter more likely to survive. If life wasn't profitable to your particular atomic makeup you wouldn't be alive because you would already have been wiped out. Either that or you would exist as inanimate matter.

Finally; reason or "point" is an invention of the human mind and therefore there is no reason to assume the forces which scientifically brought you into being would even understand what it is you feel you need (a reason to be). It is not reasonable to always assume reason.

2.) Yeah, that's right. You figured it out by yourself. There would be no such place for people to be punished or praised for their lifes work. And there isnt. Why would you assume there was? thats like saying "If there was no >insert random made-up-land here< there would be no place where people are given credit for every random blue rock they found in life. Of course there isn't - and it would be nice if there was! Boy I'd go out hunting some blue rocks right now. But it's just stupid.

3.) I hate to break this to you but if anyone is an evil tyrant it's God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valde Diabolus
Unholy Truth I: The Greed of God

Genesis

Genesis is a perfect starting point, because it is the starting point of everything and the starting point of everything that is wrong in this world:

“7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.”

In Genesis God created the world in seven days; however, the only section of genesis which is of any real interest to us is when 'he' created humanity. God was alone and a creative entity – and so he created man. This is the only real favour which God has ever done for humanity. In fact, some would go so far as to say that even this was an atrocity due to the amount of suffering our own minds cause us. Surely our anguish at our mortality and our uncertainty of a continued existence are
hateful acts. What else is interesting about this stage in the worlds creation?

Job 38:4-7 “Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone - while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?”

This is surely interesting. The “Angels” existed as God created the world. In fact, the bible never specifies when they were created. I put it to you that God never created angels. And that, just as Lucifer, God was once an angel. A fact which he cunningly hid. God rose above all other spiritual beings calling them into his collective hierarchy. He became the Tyrant of the Heavens.

“16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Just as all tyrants and dictators fear knowledge and ideas, so does God. Did God fear that if his pets knew almost as much as he did – that we might bite him? God gave us free will, but he also gave free will to the angels who formerly turned against him. Among them, democratic Lucifer the voice of reason. Maybe we are attempt two or three at the “Ant Farm” constructed by God.

“18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." 19 Now out of the ground the LORD God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. 22 And the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said,

“This at last is bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called Woman,
because she was taken out of Man.”

Even within God's world he felt the need to implement hierarchy. If we look at the example above we can clearly see that the sexes are divided according to God. Man before woman in creation and in order of importance. This is clearly wrong, immoral and imbalanced;
However, even before man when God ordered the angels into their “Spheres” God had created hierarchy:

First Sphere


Seraphim
Cherubim
Ophanim

Second Sphere

Thrones
Dominions
Principalities

Third Sphere

Powers
Archangels
Angels

It appears that God has a lust for domination and hierarchical order in all places, realities and dimensions of existence. The Seraphim is the only “Singular” spiritual entity besides the components of the Trinity in terms of rank. Ironically, Lucifer was once a/the Seraphim before he fell from God's favour by trying to rise above him. Lucifer surely had a right to express that he felt he should become the lead entity of the universe; why did God react by casting his brightest pupil into the depths of hell? It is my opinion that God was afraid Satan would make a fairer and more just ruler than he. A ruler with more potential.

However, because God was more aggressive and dangerous than Satan he was able to cast Lucifer from the heavens. Here begins the pain and suffering of humanity. Here is where God declared war on democracy which the worthiest human societies prize so highly.
Number 4...)

I would want bad people to be punished yes. But does me wanting something make it true? I mean I also want a giant yellow penguin named Fred - don't see one of those. And if there is one he ain't mine...

5.)

I have. It's not that great. YOU READ "God Is Not Great" by "Christopher Hitchens"

6.)

The evidence suggests the contrary.

7.)

I don't care if you renounce your faith it's not that big a deal to me or probably anyone else here.

8.)

Clearly I can -_-; having studied religion, philosophy and having actually BEEN a "confirmed" christian I am in a fairly clued in position on that religion.

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  #26  
Old 25-11-2007, 06:17 PM
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okay once again Satan is evil. and evil ruler and a just ruler cannot be the same thing. he wanted to be equal to God but it isn't possible. it's like a fly wanting to be king of the world. he had rights and freedom of expression was one of those but he took it too far. just like you can say that somebody deserves to die but actually killing them is taking it too far.

secondly if you don't believe that God exists then tell me how Jesus arose from the dead. roman executioners were grimly efficient and would have faced death themselves if anybody came down from the cross alive. next the tomb was guarded by roman soldiers. the disciples had no motive and no opportunity. next five hundred different people saw jesus after he was dead. it's not possible for five hundred different people to see the same hallucination.

why people back then stoned adulterists and homosexuals because the bible said that stuff is wrong. it is wrong but of course nobody deserves to die because of it. also I kind of doubt God made woman inferior to man. if you think about it woman have everything. men have basically nothing. men are acutually I would say inferior to woman.

God wants to have order in the universe and Satan tries to cause discord. Discord happens but there is also order in this world. also in what way is God a tyrant? and even if he doesn't exist I'd much rather be remembered for trying to help people than somebody saying at my funeral "he never tried to help anybody but himself." I'd rather they say he did what he could to try and bring peace than he did whatever he cared to and brought disorder. what would you rather be remembered as?

also if you apply ockham's razor to religion then the God hypothesis makes much more sense than darwinism. ?
also no mercy you want me to try and prove God exists? fine let's arrange a meeting place so I can kill you. same with anybody else who wants proof that God exists. that'd be the easiest way and if he doesn't congrats you were right.

also look around you or up sometime. the earth is too intricate to have been made by random chance. you honestly think the earth was made by bunching atoms together. this is how unlikely that hypothesis is. say there was a large fair with over ten thousand people and there were two more people with your name. now let's say that you are blindoflded and you have one chance to find thos two people. then let's say you get to retry but you get one try every year. Do realize how long it would take for you to find them? it would take millions of years. that's the chance of the right atoms buching up with each other. then even if they did that molecule would have to combine with other molecules and they'd all have to combine with exactly the right one otherwise it can't happen. if you actually look at the chances it is almost utterly impossible to create an earth that can support life. then that life has to become what it is today. do you realize how idiotic that sounds? it's an excuse that is full of holes. if evolution happened there would be tons of fossils proving it. how many are there? not many that look valid to anybody. the archaeopteryx looks like a bad stone drawing that somebody made. in actuality darwinism is completely blind faith. it doesn't have scientific merit whatsoever. people only believe in it because they don't want to believe in God. if you believe in GOd then you definitely believe in what people tell you blindly.

I'd rather not be on a site with people who made a thread so they can keep maligning my religion and I'd rather not have to tell my friends to tell their friends to tell their friends etcetera never to get on this site and put it out of business. If you want to malign God pm each other. or go on one of those pagan websites. just don't add this site to the list of pagan websites. also I don't think God hates homosexuals. he created humans and he created free will. some people are put off with homosexuality as am I but I can tolerate it God doesn't like it but that doesn't mean you are a bad person just because you like somebody of the same gender. a bad person is somebody who does things to harm people in some way. I don't think that includes homosexuality. if somebody else does that is fine we can all believe what we want to believe. just leave religion off of this site. if you have a problem with my religion then please discuss it somewhere else.
marx

last thing if I can't take stuff from christian websites or books then you can't take anything form atheist websites or books. if one person can't do something then neither can the other. so all of your proof is out the window as well because almost everything you say is either quoted by a book or rom an atheist website. so if you can take stuff from an atheist website or book then I can take stuff from a christian website or book. also even if my religion is utterly false if enough people believe in it there would be a lot less strife in this world when you think about it. although I doubt my religion is false considering how muhc proof there is to the contrary.
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  #27  
Old 25-11-2007, 10:44 PM
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I really cannot be bothered to write a large, smart-worded response to that, but I spotted a few points that flaw what you've said. You say the world is too intricate to have been created by chance... 100% of SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE, that is to say, evidence we have proof of, not a dumb book, says it was. Ergo I'd belive that over religion any day.

If you don't believe exists then tell me how Jesus arose from the dead. This is very simple. We don't believe in Jesus, because the bible on a whole is a complete farce and has been disproved a multitude of times over.

You state how foolish it would be for a fly to want to be king of the world. First, a fly doesn't have the mental capacity to think that. Second, there are many people who want to rule the world, alive and dead, so this point is out the window.

why people back then stoned adulterists and homosexuals because the bible said that stuff is wrong. it is wrong. Oh my life are you a complete moron? Homosexuality is not wrong, and I can't wait to show this to Rena so she can tear at you with a more eloquent verbatim than I. There has been research, SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, which has brought about the possibility of there being a gene, a physical gene, part of the make-up of the human body, that determines sexuality. Ergo God ****ed up if homosexuality is wrong. HE WOULD HAVE MADE IT. Point defeated, next up!

also no mercy you want me to try and prove God exists? fine let's arrange a meeting place so I can kill you. Haha...hahahaha...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! ! Hilarious, and quite tempting, dear boy. An interesting notion, but quite easier said than done. I've been stabbed and shot, slammed into the gravel from a 170MPH crash, among other things, and I'm still kicking, so if you think you can do it, by all means give it your best shot. Big tough guy, threatening someone else over the internet.
then let's say you get to retry but you get one try every year. Do realize how long it would take for you to find them? it would take millions of years. The Earth, that's this planet, the one we're on, is over four BILLION years old. A couple million don't mean **** compared to that. Next try.
it's an excuse that is full of holes. So is the bible. And all religion.
in actuality darwinism is completely blind faith. It has proof, religion does not.

also I don't think God hates homosexuals. he created humans and he created free will. No, but whoever wrote the bible does. Allow me to refresh your memory, if you have one.

LEVITICUS 18:22 STATES THAT YOU SHALL NOT LIE WITH A MAN AS WITH A WOMAN, IT IS AN ABOMINATION. LEVITICUS 20:13 ADDS THE PENALTY "IF A MAN LIES WITH A MALE AS WITH A WOMAN, BOTH OF THEM HAVE COMMITTED AN ABOMINATION; THEY SHALL BE PUT TO DEATH, THEIR BLOOD UPON THEM".

IN COITUS INTERRUPTUS, (GENESIS 38:1 TO 38:11) MALE HOMOSEXUAL ACTS, OR MALE MASTURBATION ARE CONSIDERED TANTAMOUNT TO ABORTION OR MURDER.

Ergo the bible has some real bull**** reasoning, and is far from being the word of any god. Any god who acted this way would surely be ASHAMED to be worshipped, when they are, in the lightest available terms, a complete douchebag.

Now, onto Hell. A lovely place I must say.
because god is all-knowing, he perceives that your chief reason for following him is because you fear eternal agony. Not love of him, Creation, or your fellow humanity (atheists included), as it the obligation of all christians, but fear for your own well-being.

also I kind of doubt God made woman inferior to man. if you think about it woman have everything. men have basically nothing. men are acutually I would say inferior to woman. They were not recognized as true citizens, you fool. Women EVEN NOW are inferior in society; lower wages, etc. and they only recently earned the 'right' to vote.
last thing if I can't take stuff from christian websites or books then you can't take anything form atheist websites or books. RADICALIST. I don't want the opinions of some sneering god-squad fool, I want actual, physical KNOWLEDGE.

I believe this is from the bible, also. "Our lord is our shepherd, and we are his flock." If we were created with free will, we would need no shepherd; we need no guiding hand, no divine light, for we make our own destinies, and we grasp them with an iron fist.

also even if my religion is utterly false if enough people believe in it there would be a lot less strife in this world when you think about it. Most wars happen between groups of differing faiths; they follow different religions, and believe the heretics must be vanquished. If this is indeed the case, it is about time religion was demolished once and for ALL.
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Old 26-11-2007, 12:36 AM
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there is no scientific evidence to suggest how the world came into being. where has the bible been disproved? if you give me a reference to a quote from an atheist website then it's the same as me giving you a post to christian website. also I never said I was going to stab you if I killed you I was actually thinking of blowing you to smithereens. That would either prove Or disprove it. also the fly thing was an anology the people point is actually out the window because I never said anything about people you did.

women are considered inferior in society because most men want to be superior. that is the way it is and probably always will be.

also people need a leader. if there were no leader free will would make there be utter chaos. if people just always did whatever they want then child abuse would be more abundant, there would be murders more frequently,more wars more stuff that people do that they know is wrong or has no actual point. also if you have to see to believe then I can't help you. I can't make God come down from heaven just to make people believe in him. also since you want actual physical evidence that God exists then I want actual physical evidence that darwinism happened. darwinism has little proof that it even had a chance of happening. God existing on the other hand has scientific merit. also billions of years only accounts for the earth not the other billions of planets and stars that exist in the universe.


once again even if my religion is false there would be less strife in the world. think about what my religion teaches no killing,no greed, noanger, no lying. this is a quote from a song and it's mostly true "if everyone cared and nobody cried if everyone loved and nobody lied if everyone shared and swallowed their pride then we'd see the day where nobody died." that is what my religion teaches. do you know how much chaos there would be if there was no religion? religion is basically the only thing that keeps this world sustained. as soon as religion is gone so is this world. Once there is no religion people won't care whether something is right or it's wrong. they'll be killing each other raping each other and beating each other no matter how much they beg for mercy or beg the person to stop. even if people do good things out of fear rather than out of love it is still better thn them not doing good things at all.

also I don't personally care about homosexuality it is adultery that truly ticks me off.

also like I said before neither of us is going to be able to convince the other and we'll just end up repeating the same stuff. we're honestly going to just have to agree to disagree.

also the earth is not billions of years old. carbon dating is incredibly unreliable on some dates and science is not as almighty as you think. there is no such thing as an unbiased scientist. they will either believe God exists or he doesn't. you will only listen to the side you are on and not give any thought to the other.

also like I said it would take millions actually hundreds of millions of years for it to happen and that is the chances of making a single molecule! so then those molecules have to somehow combine with other ones of the right type. therefore even over 4 billion years old is not a large enough time frame to even make the earth let alone all of the trees, plants, algae, insects reptiles and mammals . it would take a quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion quadrillion years for it to even be plausible. And that's for an earth that is not as refined as ours. That's for the earth also. the pure complexity of the universe discredits the hypothesis of darwinism because darwinism is random chance not designed by intelligence.

I would write more but I have to get off now.
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  #29  
Old 26-11-2007, 08:55 PM
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There's no way in hell (lol, don't shoot me for using a common expression, either side <<) that I am reading this whole topic. I'm not even going to read this page xD I'll just add my little bits of thought in to the mixing pot.

All knowledge is relative to what we believe in. Everybody has their own respective God(s) or lack there of, everybody has their own set of morals and values. It varies person to person depending on the outside influences in said person's life (parents, school, tv, homeless man screaming about the second coming..) Too often do I see people referring to religions as baseless fantasy, for the weak, etc etc. This personal opinion is an attack on someone's very foundation of being and nothing else.

Don't get me wrong though. Science recieves just as many attacks as religion, and it is just as wrong and just as much an attack on someone's foundation of being. Science in its own way is a religion. You follow those who appear to know what they're talking about who hold up a slide which you can see your cells reproducing (loose example) as a religious 'fanatic' would a priest holding a holy text. People who are atheists/agnostics/whatever who have a firm belief in science of course do not acknowledge this, at least the ones I know.

Both "sides", science and religion, claim proof in different forms. Science claims that because they can look at our bodies closer and in detail see we are made up of smaller cells that we came from goo, whereas religion claims that only their God, as perfect as he/she/it is, could have created something as wonderful as man. In fact (though neither side will probably ever admit it) neither proves anything. Religion is based entirely on simply believing something that you had been taught was true. Science is based entirely on believing that our interpretation of something that is far beyond our understanding is the absolute answer to life's questions.

In the end it doesn't matter, because people will continue to believe what they want to believe, science or otherwise. Is it possible that science is correct? Yes, but no more possible than say, Pastafarianism, or whatever it's called << These arguments about who is right is what breeds war and hatred, you could war over who's right scientifically too, there are no definites in science.. I'm rambling.

My point is, you can't blame religion for your problems when in fact science itself is just a new breed of religion, and you can't blame science for ruining your religion because they converted some people to a new religion.




You can argue till your tongue's fall out and your fingers fall off. In the end you're just breeding more hatred because you're attacking someone's way of living (both sides). Sit down, relax, have a beverage.
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  #30  
Old 26-11-2007, 09:11 PM
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hear hear I agree finally somebody is talking some sense and trying to end this whole ordeal seeing as neither side will ever agree. I don't utterly agree with what you are saying but I do want to end this fight before we all become bitter enemies. (having a root beer)
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